Curse

Manusyop · Apr 23, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

...They are doing something about them. That's what this update was for. If there's a better solution, I'm sure they'd be happy to implement it...

Type a code when you try to enter a 2nd or 3rd time in the same area for example, if think this take me over 3 seconds they could find a better way to stop the bots, and after 2 years thinking on it scale drop is the solution.
I think that a similar solution that scale drop could be that you can only leave the cities or outpost with all members in the group (other 3 seconds to think this), but what happens if you want to go out with less members for a better drop to the party, has the same problem than scale drop the freedom to choose, unless they has the same reward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

...
Agreed. All the players who are threating to switch to WoW are quickly going to realize that all MMOs have rebalancing, and all rebalancing will undoubtedly make some players unhappy. From what I've heard from friends, WoW has just as much "nerfing" as GW, if not more.
...

Rebalance???, equal distribution of something??, they don't rebalance simply they change skill for time, oppositely to which they always said, this is the change. Play more, get more loot, you cannot focus time in other way to get more loot that spend time, because you don't have the freedom to choose how to play. To balance 1 to 8, you need 7 more in the 1 side then 1+7=8.
And if someone is unhappy is normal, casual farmers must steal the loot from other players or something bad for that now they can't choose, is a punishment for being bad.

Loviatar · Apr 23, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Thirdly, if there has been no change, what do you call the game update which added Hard Mode and changed the loot system? Anet calls it a change. The players see it as a change. The mechanics of the game are not the same today as they were a week ago. By definition, this is a change. How is there no change?

you stated the following quote which combined skill over time with changes in the game play mechanics.

Quote:

The problem is that from day one, Anet has advertised Guild Wars as a game for the "casual gamer," where time played did not matter nearly as much as the players' skill. If this were true, there would be few if any changes to the actual mechanics of the game over time. Instead, they have created an environment in which the "casual gamer" must constantly invest time into rediscovering the way the game works. It's not worth it to us, and we feel that we have been deceived by false advertising.

as i said that skill over time is for PVP not PVE and the PVP gane was unchanged by this.

Quote:

Gaile Gray(who, may I remind you, is a representative of Anet) had this to say about the reasons for the change and casual players and high-priced items:

i know who she is and has been helpful and pleasant each time i have contacted her

Quote:

Now, if you accept Gaile Gray's validity as a representative of Anet, then you must therefore accept that her official statements are the will and intentions of Anet. Therefore, as she has stated, it is the intent of Anet that the high-priced items in the game (i.e. the 15k armors, etc.) be more easily attainable for the "casual player." It is cited as a reason for the update itself.

The hypocrisy comes in when one compares the statements of Anet's reasons for the changes to the true effect which those changes have on the game. According to the experience and analysis of myself and many others who have listed their views here, the reality is that these new changes have little impact on the "professional" farmer, but rather make it even more difficult for the "casual player" to afford the high-end items. Gaile said that it was never their intention that only farmers could afford the "coolest" items in the game, but the fact of the matter is these changes have not removed the need to farm to obtain these items, rather they have amplified the need. Add to this the fact that Anet has always claimed that the focus of the game was for the casual player, and there you have the change in Anet's attitude. The words coming from Anet do not match their actions. By definition, this is hypocrisy.

the problem is that many people have wildly divirging ideas on what is a reasonable amount of time/effort to obtain that cool loot.

i will give as an example the 3 tier armor system.

1 DROK as the LONG TERM GOAL for the casual player.

2. 15K armor for the serious player also taking a long time (months not weels) to get

3. FOW armor for the seriously hard core taking many months to over a year to earn.

when a casual player expects to get FOW armor in casual play they are getting way too much loot to begin with.

phone call bye

Kaleban · Apr 23, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Ok....

In simple terms:

Anet's argument

8=1

My argument

8!=1; 8=8; 1=1

I'll do a math proof for it if you'd like.

Whether you like it or not, a person who solo kills the same number of monsters as an 8 person party should get all the drops, having done 8 times the work.

The only counterargument to that that is valid is if you believe that regardless of time, skill and effort, everyone should be rewarded equally.

If that's the case, there's no difference at all how you play, whether you solo, PUG or hero/hench. Because there's no incentive to do anything?

That's why socialist economies fail.

Most games I have played online do not drastically rebalance the entire economy after the game has been running more or less smoothly for two+ years, and having millions of dedicated and casual players. And IF such drastic measures are undertaken, its usually done for one of two reasons:

1. Public outcry. Yes, when players complain enough, things can change. However, this rebalance was not whined for that I can see, prior to this update, I don't remember ever hearing people say how unfair things were.

2. Hidden agenda. Yes, it happens, that companies do not always tell their customers everything. All this update serves to do is make title grinding more attractive (increasing rare drops in HARD MODE means Wisdom track for one) than economical grinding, its called a switcheroo. And it makes sense, sort of, given the "carry-over" Hall of Monuments, that requires players to buy EN so they can use them IN 2! So in one stroke, the devs have subtly encouraged the naive or otherwise uninformed to alter their playing habits to "mold" them to buy both their next expansion AND sequel. This is doubly apparent due to the NON-carryover of items and wealth.

Conspiracy theory? Maybe. But it seems the only logical reason for an update that does the exact OPPOSITE of what it purports to do.

rohlfinator · Apr 23, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

How is this an acceptable solution? A real solution to the bot problem would lessen the viability of bots in the game while doing little to no harm to the rest of the playerbase.

I agree. If the dev team could do this, it would be ideal. But it's difficult to lessen the viability of bots without also lessening the viability of players who act like bots.

Quote:

No, no one is being forbidden, but they are definetly being "heavily encouraged" as other ways of play are being made less and less viable.

Unless all ways of play provide identical rewards, there will always be some styles of play that are less viable than others. As it stood before, PUGs/henchmen were far less viable than farming. How is heavily encouraging farming any more fair than heavily encouraging PUGs/henchmen?

Quote:

By all means, remove the need to farm from the game, not the ability to farm.

Myself and several others have already pointed out that farming is not necessary for the enjoyment of the game. I don't know what more can be said on that subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

I don't know if taking posts out of context is your favorite pasttime or what, but stop doing it. Seriously. When responding to someone's post, it's generally helpful to read the post that they've quoted to understand what they're responding to.

I did read the post you quoted.

I'll elaborate on my response, since I can see how it could be misinterpreted: Nobody -- not GloryFox, not me, not ArenaNet -- is restricting you from playing the game the way you want to play it. You want to play with heroes and henchmen? Go ahead, and I hope you have fun playing that way. Don't worry so much about what other people are saying, just enjoy the game.

Quote:

Again, there is no one play style to this game that is correct. If there was, Anet would restrict entering missions or leaving outposts to maximum party size of that area.

Agreed. Anet has done a pretty good job of supporting different play styles, and making the game enjoyable to different types of players.

That being said, (and this isn't meant as a direct counterargument to your post, but as a general observation) the game by design expects some types of play over others. For example, some players may choose to play by charming pets, leveling them to 20, and then selling them to the pet tamer, and have a fun time doing it. ArenaNet won't discourage them from doing it, but those players should realize that the game wasn't intended to be played that way, and that they might not be able to easily accomplish the same things that other players can do.

Guild Wars was created with certain play styles in mind, and while you have a wide range of freedom within those play styles, you don't have limitless freedom. That is a basic necessity of game design; you can't design a game to be fun without being able to expect that players will play within the bounds of some basic guidelines. If you don't like those basic guidelines, it's possible that you would be better served by playing another game.

Abarra · Apr 23, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

so many people are missing the point whether it be deliberate or otherwise, and most of those missing it are 'experienced' players who have made their cash and kitted out their characters.

1. This game is for casual players as well as experienced.

2. Not all people want to make this game their life

3. getting builds together and time and effort to organise things such as guild mission runs etc. is not being a casual player.

4. The casual player could make enough money to get by doing a few low level solo runs to get some cash.

5. Now the casual player (I don't mean one who wants to work out builds for hard mode, or who wants to spend their life in a trading battle trying to sell stuff with a million other people in LA but the casual player) cannot make enough money to kit out their heroes, skills, runes etc. unless they upgrade from casual to advanced(so can't even afford to make these leet builds etc. that advanced players keep yelling about)

6. solo UW runs and green runs are done by advanced players, not casual players and are unaffected by the nerf which is probably why we see so many leet farmers telling us casual players to stop whining.

7. yes you can try and trade weapon mods, but have you seen weapon mod prices recently? unless you get a perfect sword fortitude or sundering mod you're lucky to even sell it after an hour of spamming. Apart from high level drops (advanced play yet again) and chest runs most of the drops are useless to the casual player

Bottom line, the advanced or experienced player can play as before and sees no problem with the update. The casual player who played the game for fun, has been stuffed by this nerf. You get no more cash for playing in a group or playing the game, just less if you try to make up the shortfall.

Anet are stating that this update is friendly to the casual player - they are wrong. This is a fact not an opinion, as can be seen by the many many casual players that are complaining.

Anet are going to lose revenue. People won't be able to afford to create new characters - loss of revenue in character slots. There will be a good percentage won't buy eyes of the north because of this. They haven't just made a tweak or small change to balance out the skills etc. They have destroyed a whole level of gameplay for the less advanced and poorer members of the playing society (who says games don't mimic reality o_O)

Quantum Duck · Apr 23, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

as i said that skill over time is for PVP not PVE and the PVP gane was unchanged by this.

I don't recall anyone offically saying that what they advertised was only talking about part of the game. I tend to assume they are talking about the entire game unless they state otherwise. I see no reason why my success should be determined by time spent rather than skill in PvE either, personally. That's a big part of why I bought GW, in fact.

That's why farming and the economy are both irrelevent to me. As a casual player, I have gotten everything I need to be successful just by playing the game. The drops I've gotten just by playing through the campaign have been more than enough to get me max stats on my weapons and armor. Max equipment plus my modest level of skill have been sufficient to overcome every challenge I've tried so far given enough consideration and effort, along with a few retries when necessary.

As far as I'm concerned, that's all the game promised. If they happen to provide more than that, good for them.

Age · Apr 23, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

you stated the following quote which combined skill over time with changes in the game play mechanics.

as i said that skill over time is for PVP not PVE and the PVP gane was unchanged by this.

i know who she is and has been helpful and pleasant each time i have contacted her

the problem is that many people have wildly divirging ideas on what is a reasonable amount of time/effort to obtain that cool loot.

i will give as an example the 3 tier armor system.

1 DROK as the LONG TERM GOAL for the casual player.

2. 15K armor for the serious player also taking a long time (months not weels) to get

3. FOW armor for the seriously hard core taking many months to over a year to earn.

when a casual player expects to get FOW armor in casual play they are getting way too much loot to begin with.

phone call bye

Does a casual player have to wait over 3 yrs or untill GW2 comes out to get their set of FoW armour no I wouldn't think so.Then there are those who have it already I wonder how long it took them to farm unless their guild bought it for them.It should take about 4 months say after ascending by playing the game right but the drop rate has been cut back so bad.It is worse than Government cut backs in services.

Kaleban · Apr 23, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Guild Wars was created with certain play styles in mind,

This is why you're wrong:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

ArenaNet understands that people enjoy playing Guild Wars in many different ways, and our goal is to make each of those ways fun and rewarding. Solo farming sometimes becomes a controversial issue because it can damage the game for other people. In those cases, ArenaNet tries to keep the game fun for everyone while still providing fun and rewarding play for solo farmers.

See, even ANet thinks you're wrong. I disagree with Gaile's assertion that solo farming hurts other players' games, that is the province of botting, but whatever.

I just wanted to point out that the basis for your argument is wrong. Have a nice day.

explodemyheart · Apr 23, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I did read the post you quoted.

I'll elaborate on my response, since I can see how it could be misinterpreted: Nobody -- not GloryFox, not me, not ArenaNet -- is restricting you from playing the game the way you want to play it. You want to play with heroes and henchmen? Go ahead, and I hope you have fun playing that way.

I'll quote myself and bold my point, so you don't miss it this time.

Quote:

How about you quit worrying about how other people play the game and let them play how they choose to play it?

"Let them play" is not suggesting that they (GloryFox) is restricting any type of game play. It is a statement of "don't worry about it and go about your own business" (I figured this was logic, but I guess I was wrong) because, really... telling people to "grow up and play the game how it was intended" is not only contributing absolutely nothing of use to the conversation, but is incorrect anyway because there is no correct way of play style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Don't worry so much about what other people are saying, just enjoy the game

The same could be said for you and GloryFox. And, perhaps, all of the people defending this update. You don't like people being able to farm? Don't worry so much about what other people are doing, just enjoy the game.

blackbird71 · Apr 24, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

as i said that skill over time is for PVP not PVE and the PVP gane was unchanged by this.

This is your opinion. Would you please back it up with a source from Anet (not PC Gamer) in which they specifically state that the value of skill over time played only applies to PvP and not PvE rewards? Here is what I could find on the subject direct from my GW Prophecies (purchased before it was called that) box:

Quote:

You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat.

(boldface added for emphasis)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

the problem is that many people have wildly divirging ideas on what is a reasonable amount of time/effort to obtain that cool loot.

i will give as an example the 3 tier armor system.

1 DROK as the LONG TERM GOAL for the casual player.

2. 15K armor for the serious player also taking a long time (months not weels) to get

3. FOW armor for the seriously hard core taking many months to over a year to earn.

when a casual player expects to get FOW armor in casual play they are getting way too much loot to begin with.

I don't care to argue this point further, so once again, I will let Gaile Gray's words do it for me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I will explain the reasoning for the change:

All players were seeing high prices for the most desirable items; they noted a push to unattainable of items they wanted to get.
The only players able to attain the coolest items fell into a certain player type, the farmer.
This reduced the fun factor of the game, in that the game seemed to require that players play in a certain way if they wanted to get those items.
Farming is ok with us, no problem at all, but we did not intend that farming would be "required," or that only farmers would be able to obtain the coolest items.

Here's one way of looking at it, perhaps this will make sense to some: The intention of loot scaling is not to "punish" the expert farmer. The intention is remove the numeric punishment that was previously inflicted upon those who play casually and/or who play in a party.

According to Gaile, Anet's intentions are different then yours. Anet seems to think that all the "coolest" items in the game should be within reach of the casual gamer. Granted, she does not specify 15k armor or FoW as being the "coolest" items, but I think it is a reasonable inference from the context that they would be included in this category. The gist of the statement seems to be that Anet's intentions are that any item in the game should be relatively attainable by the casual player. So yes, many people have diverging opinions on this, but shouldn't Anet's opinoin be the final word?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I agree. If the dev team could do this, it would be ideal. But it's difficult to lessen the viability of bots without also lessening the viability of players who act like bots.

I'm glad we have found some common ground. Personally though, I would prefer no fix to a fix that harms the community as a whole more than it helps it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Unless all ways of play provide identical rewards, there will always be some styles of play that are less viable than others. As it stood before, PUGs/henchmen were far less viable than farming. How is heavily encouraging farming any more fair than heavily encouraging PUGs/henchmen?

All right then, I suppose I should clarify my statement. What I should have said is that they are not directly encouraging playing in groups, rather they are heavily discouraging not playing in groups, something which they used to claim they were "fine" with. Does that make more sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Myself and several others have already pointed out that farming is not necessary for the enjoyment of the game. I don't know what more can be said on that subject.

Here's the problem. You only go so far as to say it's not necessary for the "enjoyment" of the game. Anet takes it a step further. As I have pointed out, Gaile Gray has said that it should not be necessary for the obtaining of the "coolest" items in the game. The problem is that the update actually increases the necessity to farm in order to obtain these items, it now takes more farming, solo or otherwise, in order to afford the high-priced "coolest" items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I'll elaborate on my response, since I can see how it could be misinterpreted: Nobody -- not GloryFox, not me, not ArenaNet -- is restricting you from playing the game the way you want to play it. You want to play with heroes and henchmen? Go ahead, and I hope you have fun playing that way. Don't worry so much about what other people are saying, just enjoy the game.

This one wasn't directed at me but I would like to make one comment on the topic if that's all right? You're assuming that solo farming is the way we want to play. Personally, I can say that it is not, it is something I have resorted to from time to time to supplement my in-game income. The thing is that it used to be a method that was at least rewarding enough to counter my dislike of doing it, i.e. the rewards were good enough to make me not mind so much. Now this has changed, I don't care for solo farming, I wish it weren't necessary, and Anet has made it necessary to solo farm for even longer periods of time in order to gain the same reward as before, while failing to provide an alternative. So are they restricting me from the way I want to play? Yes, by ensuring that if I want to continue playing in my normal manner I will have to waste more of my time farming and so I have less to spend actually playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Sorry but I cannot support or promote Anti social behavior and that is what solo farming is for the most part is because its all about “you”. Guild Wars is a social game requiring teamwork and player interaction for the most part. Morrowind and Oblivion might be a better game for you “I must be anti social and not play with others” people if you really hate this update.

I don't appologize for my beforehand statements because I don't support anti social behavior or people on Zoloft.

Get a life people .... really....

Please point out one time in which Guild Wars was advertised or promoted as a game which required social interaction. As far as I can tell, that is your opinion of what the game should be, not Anet's. Here is what I found from my GW retail box:

Quote:

IT'S YOUR ADVENTURE!
Jump right into a world of thousands where each mission is created just for you. Live a fast paced adventure without travel time delay, high death penalties, or spawn camping. Join with friends or play solo with a band of skillful henchmen.

(boldface added for emphasis)

Your complaint is that solo play is "all about you." It's kind of funny that those are almost the exact words which Anet used to describe their game in the first place: "It's Your Adventure!...created just for you." It seems to me that it has always been Anet's intent that we have a choice on how we play, whether in solo or in groups. Henchmen were not provided as a last resort. For that matter, I don't see anything in that statement about being required to form groups with total strangers either, it said "friends," i.e., people I know and whose company I enjoy. If at any time Anet's policy has changed and I am now required to play only in groups in a social environment, please inform me and I will address my complaints directly to the appropriate department, because that's not the game I paid for.

Yggdrasil · Apr 24, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Guys, "stop feeding the troll," (EDIT: in regard the the post advising people to "get a life;" not as a slant against the user who posted said comment) I reported the post, it should be gone soon. I don't know what else there is to say really. Other than I would classify myself as "casual" (1 level 20 about to beat Prophecies, 2 others chars. in early parts). I haven't farmed at all, but I was going to go out this summer and try to get enough money to buy some 15k armor(s). Right now I have maybe a total of 25k between my 3 guys, solely from doing quests/missions. This is only buying some armor, no runes (that I remember, all drops), weapons, etc.

Now, it seems like I may never get the armor I was looking forward to. I'm not going to grind Hard Mode, I don't want to spam the trade channel, I don't want to spend a weekend constantly going through Hard Mode to make any money. I've never even been in FoW/UW, though I do sort of look forward to popping in one or two times.

Unfortunately I have no good suggestions to add, as they have all already been stated, far more eloquently than I could.

I am also "guilty" of solo play; my guild has gone inert in the 1.5+ yr. I've been gone, and PUG's have such an appalling lack of class that I have no interest.

rohlfinator · Apr 24, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Whether you like it or not, a person who solo kills the same number of monsters as an 8 person party should get all the drops, having done 8 times the work.

That's your opinion, not a fact. I've already explained that I disagree with that opinion, and judging by this update, so does at least part of the design team at ArenaNet. I will concede that the method you describe is very commonly used in other RPGs, but Guild Wars has many design elements that are contrary to common RPG standards.

Quote:

See, even ANet thinks you're wrong.

Gaile said that (paraphrased) ArenaNet wants to make the game fun for all players, regardless of their style of play. That doesn't disprove my point, that Guild Wars was designed with certain play styles in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Personally though, I would prefer no fix to a fix that harms the community as a whole more than it helps it.

I agree, although it has yet to be seen that this fix will produce net harm to the community. Economic issues like this take a while to settle out. If there is a high probability of this producing a net gain to the community, then Anet had a good reason to implement it. Keep in mind that the community, as a whole, is far larger than the set of vocal members of this forum.

Quote:

All right then, I suppose I should clarify my statement. What I should have said is that they are not directly encouraging playing in groups, rather they are heavily discouraging not playing in groups, something which they used to claim they were "fine" with. Does that make more sense?

I see where you're coming from, but encouragement/discouragement is relative. Personally, I view it as both styles being encouraged (approximately) equally, whereas previously farming was more heavily encouraged than grouping. Farming is still plenty profitable; it's just not as profitable as it was before.

Quote:

Here's the problem. You only go so far as to say it's not necessary for the "enjoyment" of the game. Anet takes it a step further. As I have pointed out, Gaile Gray has said that it should not be necessary for the obtaining of the "coolest" items in the game. The problem is that the update actually increases the necessity to farm in order to obtain these items, it now takes more farming, solo or otherwise, in order to afford the high-priced "coolest" items.

I agree with Gaile. Farming isn't necessary for many of the coolest items (Obsidian armor being one major exception). It might be necessary if you want lots of the coolest items, but that isn't a reasonable goal for a casual player, and giving every player every item for free (or very cheap) would make for very poor replay value.

Kaleban · Apr 24, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

That's your opinion, not a fact. I've already explained that I disagree with that opinion, and judging by this update, so does at least part of the design team at ArenaNet. I will concede that the method you describe is very commonly used in other RPGs, but Guild Wars has many design elements that are contrary to common RPG standards.

No, its not an opinion. If a single player kills the same amount of monsters as an 8 player group, then that player should get 8x the drops, unless something is seen as unfair regarding reward commensurate with effort. Its math, not opinion.

And the reason its so commonly used is because it makes sense both lore wise and reality wise, and why it works, whereas socialized economies do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Gaile said that (paraphrased) ArenaNet wants to make the game fun for all players, regardless of their style of play. That doesn't disprove my point, that Guild Wars was designed with certain play styles in mind.

Even though I disagree with a lot of things Gaile said due to the content, you can't argue that she said ANet wants to make the game fun for ALL players, even the solo farmers, jesus just READ her post!

And your point is PURE speculation, you don't know if the devs decided they only wanted a few styles of play, or wanted to give every player the opportunity to experience freeform gameplay, unless you ARE a dev or were for some reason included in design discussion.

So you're wrong, just as Gloryfox is wrong. Nothing bad about having wrong opinions, it just looks silly, especially when the PR person of ANet contradicts what you're arguing for.

blackbird71 · Apr 24, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I agree, although it has yet to be seen that this fix will produce net harm to the community. Economic issues like this take a while to settle out. If there is a high probability of this producing a net gain to the community, then Anet had a good reason to implement it. Keep in mind that the community, as a whole, is far larger than the set of vocal members of this forum.

I have said before and will most definetely agree with you now that it will take time to see the actual effect of these changes on the game's economy. However, I disagree that a net gain is more probable. I trust my own analysis of the situation better than Anet's assurances. Why? Past experience with both Anet and other gaming companies, the general trend of changes in the past several months, and admitedly, my inner cynic. But as you said, we'll have to wait to see who's right.

Also, you're right, the community as a whole is far larger than what is represented on these forums. However, any statistical analysis will generally accept such a random sampling of a population as a legitimate proportional representation of the population as a whole. By this, I think it is safe to assume that the opinions of the entire game community would be generally reflected by the opinions in these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I see where you're coming from, but encouragement/discouragement is relative. Personally, I view it as both styles being encouraged (approximately) equally, whereas previously farming was more heavily encouraged than grouping. Farming is still plenty profitable; it's just not as profitable as it was before.

The problem with this is that solo farming is generally considered (at least by casual players) to be more difficult and time consuming than playing grouped. I'll readily admit that it is not necessarily eight times more difficult, but it is most definetely harder and longer by some measure. So, if both methods receive "equal" rewards, this effectively lowers the reward to the solo farmer below that of the group player when considered according to time invested. Also, by my own experience and that of others who I've talked to or who have posted here, farming is not "still plenty profitable," most agree (unless were talking about Hard Mode, but I'm considering casual players here) that it is a mere shadow of it's former self. Granted, this could be considered a matter of opinion, but rather than splitting hairs, I think Anet should concern itself with the general discontent of what appears to be a majority of the playerbase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I agree with Gaile. Farming isn't necessary for many of the coolest items (Obsidian armor being one major exception). It might be necessary if you want lots of the coolest items, but that isn't a reasonable goal for a casual player, and giving every player every item for free (or very cheap) would make for very poor replay value.

The difference is that Gaile makes no exception. Anet's claimed position seems to be that all of the in game items should be attainable on some level by the casual gamer. I agree with this general idea. I'm not saying that every player should have a nice shiny set of FoW armor handed to them in Pre-sear Ascalon, but I think that with a reasonable investment of time and effort, all should be available.

To help clarify, I'll explain a little about myself. I consider myself a casual gamer not because of how little time I've played, but because of the way in which I play. I have logged 1700+ hours over the past 21+ months (of course, no telling how much of that time was afk, after all I am the one who posted a pic of GW telling me "You have been playing for one week. Please take a break"

) In that time, I have one character who is level 20, and has beaten two campaigns, Prophecies and Nightfall (I got bored of Factions before I got anywhere near finishing it). Each campaign took me 3-4 months to finish, not weeks. I have one other level 20 who has ascended in Prophecies, but gone no further. I have two more level 20s, and 11 characters in all, two of whom are dedicated mules. My 4 level 20s each have 1.5k armor from one campaign or another. One of them actually has a single chest piece of 15k. It is the only piece of 15k armor in my posession, and I do not have a single piece of Obsidian armor, Vabbian, or any other expensive set. Up until about 2 months ago, all my characters used whatever weapons I had picked up as loot, mostly purples, even some blues and whites. Recently when I gave up and began solo farming on occasion, I found myself supplied with enough extra cash to afford a few nice gold weapons for a couple characters (at least, as long as I could sell what I farmed, which was an adventure in itself). Common skins, but good stats, so I felt the farming was then worth my time. Now that I would have to put in up to eight times as much of my time into doing it for the same reward, I'm not so sure.

I didn't mean to get so long-winded, but my point is this: if the "coolest" items should be available to all casual players (as Gaile says), then at what point should this happen? Is a year of playing enough time? How about two? When you consider that the game may be offline in another two years, it would be nice to get some of these items with enough time to actually enjoy them before the whole thing gets deleted. A lot of us have been around this game a long time, and we'd really like to partake of the "coolest" items which Anet has offered us, but as it stands, it seems that the only way to do it is now to become more than a "casual" player and spend more time farming than I do at my regular job. I'm sure some may find this worthwhile, but for me? Definetely not. I don't like games which dangle carrots in front of my face, and after I've spent time and effort working towards these, yank the reward far out of reach. I've been through it before and I don't care to put up with it again.

lyra_song · Apr 24, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

FoW Armor is supposed to be a LONG TERM goal.

Months and months of casual play.

That seems reasonable to me, granted the requirements for it.

blackbird71 · Apr 24, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

FoW Armor is supposed to be a LONG TERM goal.

Months and months of casual play.

That seems reasonable to me, granted the requirements for it.

So for the record: 21 months, long enough or not? Because after 21 months of casual play, I'm nowhere near being able to afford FoW.

If not long enough, how long would you say? Bear in mind that the game may only have a four year lifespan, and 21 months is getting awfully close to 50% of that lifespan.

Kaleban · Apr 24, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

FoW Armor is supposed to be a LONG TERM goal.

Months and months of casual play.

That seems reasonable to me, granted the requirements for it.

Despite the fact that without hardcore farming, and after 23 months of regular play, I only have one character with partial FoW (the other part being Vabbi), that certainly seems reasonable to me too.

As a long term goal for a hardcore, dedicated player, who employs various methods to get it.

Now, thanks to ANet's rebalance, basic gear for heros and yourself, including maxed armor is the NEW long term goal. I suppose casual players in Normal Mode can rejoice everywhere, because now the only thing they have to look forward to is the same thing experienced players do:

hardcore grind.

whoopie.

lyra_song · Apr 24, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Now, thanks to ANet's rebalance, basic gear for heros and yourself, including maxed armor is the NEW long term goal. I suppose casual players in Normal Mode can rejoice everywhere, because now the only thing they have to look forward to is the same thing experienced players do:

I dont see how anything even changes for the regular joe who henches and pugs and doesnt solo farm.

Armor prices havent changed. Collector items havent been nerfed. Green item drops havent changed.

What basic gear are we talking about?

cellardweller · Apr 24, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont see how anything even changes for the regular joe who henches and pugs and doesnt solo farm.

Armor prices havent changed. Collector items havent been nerfed. Green item drops havent changed.

What basic gear are we talking about?

The average joe who didn't solo farm couldn't afford the basics before (ie skills and xp scrolls needed to get skill points), this has not changed for them. The difference is that now the casual farmer (for arguments sake, someone that farms for +-1hr a week) can't afford them now either.

Sir Kilgore · Apr 24, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont see how anything even changes for the regular joe who henches and pugs and doesnt solo farm.

Armor prices havent changed. Collector items havent been nerfed. Green item drops havent changed.

What basic gear are we talking about?

Exactly!

Supposedly this update was supposed to be more friendly to the casual player or as you say, the "regular joe". However, when you analyze the situation it becomes obvious that nothing has really changed for them yet.

In fact even if player to player prices get driven down eventually, the average joe will just reap less of a reward when selling his few lucky drops if he chooses to do so.

The point many have made in here is that this update does NOTHING to help those it claimed to help, but rather seems more like a penalty directed at a specific group.

I've asked many times here and elsewhere and no one has yet been able to explain exactly HOW farming hurts the other players or the economy in general. It's just stated as fact. I've yet to see one player force another player to spend 100K +20 ectos for some nifty graphics. I've also yet to see how anyone who didn't have the latest fad skin was less effective in the game. Furthermore I've yet to see any indication that the casual player will EVER be able to afford to participate in the trading/selling of the "coolest" items by just playing the campaigns - with the lucky drop as the rare exception.

If anyone can give facts (not opinions) about how farming is actually harmful I would like to see them. Mostly what I see is statements like "I'm so tired of seeing WTS spams in town" or "farmers finally got what they deserved" or things of that nature.